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Forum:	All Forums : Soldier of Fortune
Category:	SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Mapping, modeling, scripting, skinning and all forms of editing for the game Soldier of Fortune II
Moderators:	foyleman, narc, ReverendTed, rEdrUmMDK, Foxhound, PleaseMYOB, batistablr

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Topic: A long rant, comments, ideas, discussions?

General Member
Since: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 226
Last: Jan 26, 2005
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Tuesday, Jul. 16, 2002 11:18 pm
First off -- I like SoF2, I really do. It's one of the more fun FPS I've played in a while, and I really thought that the blast fest presented was just a good, solid experience. I play the multiplayer component (at work, mostly on a LAN) and can say that it, too, provides one of the more solid, enjoyable, and all around fun gaming experiences I've had in a while. Which is why I was (A) interested in learning to map for it, and (B) why I check up and read this site as much as I do. But... I've some questions, complaints, and comments. I may be on the mark or way off base -- so feel free to post your thoughts as well. I'm making statements about both the MP and SP experience, except where explicitly noted. Weapon selection: I thought that the game could have used a more diverse selection of weapons, honestly. And I really think that they dropped the ball with the OICW, because I personally don't find it to be any real fun to use. Not saying I know what SHOULD have been there, but... Second off -- there was a far underplay with pistols. There's only two, and I honestly can't see any real point to using the 1911 in terms of actual gameplay effectiveness. That being said, I'm also really disappointed with the 'automatic' and 'fixed' firing rate of the pistols. I would have liked something more along the lines of the 'single' shot firing mode for the rifles. Maybe they did this for balance, or something, but it just seems really...stunted, or something, with that fixed rate of fire, recoil, etc. For all the types of grenades included in the game, there's really only ONE frag grenade, as they seem to pretty much be all the same? I think that in some ways, they really dropped the ball with the weaponry. The AK feels pretty nice, as does the "sniper rifle" -- but overall, I think a wider selection of arms would have been nicer, or at least a bit more of a difference between the weapons that were there. (Note, the MP5 is a step in the right direction...come on Raven, I've got my fingers crossed for more additions! Also note, the weapons were modeled and animated very nicely) The RMG, for what it's worth, is cool -- and yet I think a part of me was really hoping to be able to make some 'indoor' style maps...as I really end up enjoying those more than outdoor maps. Also...an option to turn off, or at least greatly diminish the overuse of the fog would have been nice. (I know you can totally disable it in the console...I do this all the time) Overall, while it's cool to be able to have an infinite number of maps -- they get boring and redundant after a while, mainly due to, in my eyes, lack of indoor or closer knit combat. (Too spread out) Along with this, the maps generated in multiplayer tend to be quite large, and if you're playing with 5 people, even, they just tend to be wander fests where by the time you finally see one another, one of you dies, and then it's out for more walking in the fog. ;) The stealth missions were really a waste of time, and a failure, in my opinion. I don't see how anyone who playtested the game could have thought they were 'good' and thus justified them being left in the game. Now, on to the editor... I feel, in a way, like Raven is really dropping the ball here. Perhaps I'm just a whiny jerk, but I have a feeling that the releases of the SDK packages have been, for the large part, rushed, messy, and in some ways incomplete. Folks have talked about the upcoming GTKRadiant(?) and while part of me hopes that it will be a more robust deal, I've got doubts and concerns... ...because it seems that to get better 'netplay' and perhaps (because the multiplayer component can run butter smooth, and the single player as a static picture (not at all)) they stripped the HELL out of it so it would run faster and get better network performance. Which, maybe because I'm not a game programmer, I don't understand. After all -- I've played RTCW, and it seemed like they left much more in the multiplayer component, and it ran just fine on a wide variety of machines I played it on? I realize that some of the really heavy components, like their extended AI system (eh...) and the uber-detailed GHOUL models (with the eyes and teeth) were candidates to be removed... ...but not being able to turn lights on and off? Sketchy door support? No breakable objects/brushes? (Except for the newly realeased wall deal..but don't you need a bomb for that anyway?) And again, perhaps it's because I am relatively new to the Q3A mapping scene, and also because I'm not a game programmer, but it just seemed like everything that wasn't 'necessary' was quickly and immediately stripped out (rushed) to be able to make it out for release. And hey, I THANK them for that, because the MP component is great...but...it seems like it just lost a few steps, especially from a mapping standpoint, from being truly spectacular. AI -- while the AI was better than in many games, I expected more...and did not expect strange things like enemies being snipers, through tall grass, with the micro uzi, from being almost invisible in fog....and then not realizing that you're crouched around a corner, while they all come running around (or getting caught on the wall), while you just mow them down like cannon fodder. Oh, and they can throw farther, faster, and more accurate than Nolan Ryan ever could have. What's up with the silly grenade use from the enemy AI? Bots. I don't know why, but I REALLY wish there would have been included bots. Many times I like the fast paced, 'mindless' action of multiplayer, but don't feel like playing online. Or, at the office -- we'll want to play some multiplayer...but there isn't nearly enough people for infiltration, elimination, or capture the flag. A few bots, and it would have been PERFECT (even if the AI had been a bit sketchy) for that. And along with the bots, if they had been included, it would have been PERFECT to have been able to undertake some of the 'randomly generated' style single player maps, cooperatively in multiplayer. Honestly, when the RMG was discussed, and the ability to play said maps in multiplayer was revealed, that's what I THOUGHT you were going to be able to do. So...there you have it. An enjoyable game -- and one I'm likely to keep and continue playing; however, I think Raven dropped the ball and thusly presented a 'good' game, rather than something that was a fcking 'must have'. wipes brow* Whew.

brutus

General Member
Since: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 845
Last: Nov 29, 2003
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Tuesday, Jul. 16, 2002 11:32 pm
My 2 cents: I went to EB and prepaid for this game. $75 CDN and I got the 3rd one out of the box. Firstly, I want to comment on the fact that they were talking one time about leaving out the MP side of SoF2. I think if anything, the SP could have went. The scripting was horrible.. some places the AI sees and hears EVERY THING, but then in others you can tell they are just running around an their little 'train track' paths. YUCK! If they ever do a SoFIII, I hope they simply bound the bots in an area, give them sight, sound and a weapon.. at least that way they'll seem Human. THe MP: As far as the MP goes, I was so looking forward to an adult game.. THe basic premise seems to be to KILL other people, so I think its safe to say.. not made for you little kiddies.... So why o why cut the gore so much? I understand bringing it down a notch for performace but its been pretty well stripped. That's not even really buggin me to be honest... Apoxol screwed up on the crouch in this patch, then in one post states in The SHop, that the player wasn't meant to go through the window (That's why those boxes are stacked there.. right?!?) and then in another post kinda, sorta, maybe admits he screwed up... Hey Apoxol.. if you ever read this.. we all make mistakes bro.. own up to em is all.. I really love the MP, and I'm hella enjoying mapping for it... (I primarily make smaller maps N, because like you, I play in a smaller group then 32) All in all, I think that I would have been happier paying out $50 for a MP only version of the game, and after playing RtCW and MOH, the single player missions aren't going to get any playtime on my machine. I still think it was worth my money, and through all my complaints about support and documentation (I REALLY hate that.. Unchanged since Q3, go look it up somewhere) I am enjoying the game. See ya in the battle grounds :2guns:

DarkOktane

General Member
Since: Nov 8, 2001
Posts: 791
Last: Sep 16, 2005
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Tuesday, Jul. 16, 2002 11:39 pm
how do you turn the fog off? the SP was totally screwed up! i didnt like it one bit. honestly,i only bought SoF2 for the MP. SoF1 was the best in sp and mp in its's years.

General Member
Since: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 226
Last: Jan 26, 2005
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Tuesday, Jul. 16, 2002 11:47 pm
You need cheats enabled. So: hash sv_cheats 1 and then r_drawfog 0

Foxhound

Preferred PLUS Member
Since: May 31, 2002
Posts: 5854
Last: Aug 18, 2008
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Tuesday, Jul. 16, 2002 11:53 pm
Well said on both rants. I have to agree on the weapons for the most part. The pistols need work as they seem to me to have more of a game feel to then then say the pistols in (I know I know poor comparision) CS. That could be just the sounds effects though, which is something that people are already working on. The single game play is pretty much as I expected but the team play was actually more then I thought it would be. Although, I myself prefer the team based fire and movement with an Objective in mind more then I would the DM and TDM. Then again you can't please everyone. I personally bought 2 copies at EB and they were the first 2 out of the box. Sorry Brutus just had to put that in there. One for the server and one for myself. I brought it home and went right into creating a server and then started into the multi play. My first thought was I sure hope it doesn't turn out to be another MoHAA let down. And was surprised that it was better. In my mind anyway. As of 3 days ago I still hadn't played the single player version and decided to give it a try as I thought it would give me a chance to actually look at some of the uses of textures and models in game. As for support from Raven I have to give those guys a big pat on the back as when I created the server and had nothing but troubles in the configurations they were there with acurate and prompt info for me. Kudos to them. For the most part I found the game (Single) as can be expected, nice but not eye opening and the multi play put a bit of a spark into the day for a good couple of weeks. The RMG is a nice idea and I support the work that they did into making it work, it does however wear out quickly. Hence the reason why I looked into creating maps for the game. The patch came out with a new game variant and map that I have to admit I haven't played yet however, I would like to say again Kudos to the people at Raven in maintaining my interest with a new idea and a new map or maps to place on the server. As we used to say, "It can only get better with time and help from all mappers and coders." So what's stopping ya? Cheers
What me worry? To Quote Alfred E Newman Go ahead... You Play I Mod : MODSonline.com Support Modsonline by becoming a PREFERRED MEMBER today

foyleman

Preferred PLUS Member
Since: Nov 6, 2001
Posts: 27543
Last: Aug 29, 2008
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Wednesday, Jul. 17, 2002 07:44 am
I was going to rant on like some of you here.. but I have decided to be easy going. Just a few things to agree with and highlight. SP - I can't believe that this was the main focus of the game. Animation, cut scenes, ai.. CRAP MP - RMG is a innovation that could find it's way into future games. It just needs a little perfecting to find the right niche. sdk support - dont expect much from raven. SOF1 showed us that support is a temporary gesture of goodwill from them.. it doesn't last and it isn't a priority. but don't worry.. I have no plans on going anywhere. I will be around to help and keep these forums running. SOF1 lasted so long because we all held together and worked with what we had.
Go ahead... You Play I Mod : MODSonline.com Support Modsonline by becoming a PREFERRED MEMBER today Have you heard the MODSonair Podcast?: www.modsonair.com MODSonair is a weekly podcast bringing you the news from a modders perspective. Tune in every Sunday at 4pm GMT to listen LIVE.

Sevensins

General Member
Since: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 21
Last: Sep 24, 2002
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Wednesday, Jul. 17, 2002 08:41 am
Quote: sdk support - dont expect much from raven. SOF1 showed us that support is a temporary gesture of goodwill from them.. it doesn't last and it isn't a priority. I'll have to disagree with that...They have given way more support compared to say Id has with Q3 (or RTCW or EA and MOH); On many points. And if you want to compare it to half-life, from my experience, valve didn't really do poo-poo until CS became uber popular. Trust me, the sdk's aren't rushed or incomplete; most of the Q3 sdk's you couldn't even compile fresh source without tweaking poo-poo or dling files they forgot. No docs were included either, maybe samples, I can't remember. I will totally agree with you on the SOF1 one support (or uhhh no support :D)...but they have done a 180 for sof2. With apox heading the MP front thats just another plus... As for the talk about "stripping" the features; they weren't stripped, they just weren't ever there because MP is a totally different codebase as the SP; which was done first. They don't even use the same language. But I agree, some of those should have been implemented; especially as easy as they would be for rick and apox to do. Oh and SP is blahhh he he, I was expecting the story to be presented way better than it is; you barely even feel involved they way it is now.

ReverendTed

General Member
Since: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 103
Last: Aug 11, 2002
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Wednesday, Jul. 17, 2002 10:58 am
One small point - brutus, I was the one that said you originally weren't supposed to be able to get through that window on shop, because that's what I was told by the map's designer. In the beta builds, that window wasn't even there. Apox didn't admit that they screwed up. He said they changed the crouch height to fix a problem which will be fixed in a different way in the next patch. As for toning things down in the multiplayer component - 64 players can be on a single RMG map. Can you imagine what the performance would be like if you tried to render 64 players using the single player level of detail? As for the SDK support - I wouldn't call these releases "subpar" or "inadequate". These are the tools the devs themselves used to make the assets for the game. I'm pretty sure they work. SoF did get very little mod support, but it was never designed or intended to be a moddable game. Raven, I believe, learned from that. SoF2's assets are nearly all external. SoF2 was designed to be moddable...and I think they're going to support it. Single player was going to be soooo different. Did you read the SoF2 Post-Mortem by project lead Jon Zuk over on GameSpy? Very informative.

brutus

General Member
Since: Jun 12, 2002
Posts: 845
Last: Nov 29, 2003
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Wednesday, Jul. 17, 2002 04:57 pm
Bah! I was just feeling kinda craptastic at the whole works when I posted that.. Like most of the peeps it happens from time to time.. just needed to release a bit.. I can totaly see the whole 64 peeps at once.. I'll even admit I like the fog in RMG vs the pop-ups. As for the SDK support.. to be honest it has been great.. between here and Raven forums, almost any answer or problem I've come across, I've found a solution to or an answer for. I guess sometimes its easy to take people for granted, and maybe we should all eat a little piece of humble pie.. after all... the sdk was FREE and No-Where on my box does it state "Now with MOD Support" lol.. I gotta give Apoxol and all the rest kudos, including you Rev, Foyleman and almost everyone here that reads the rants and posts helpful solutions for others. Without us giving each other a hand up, none of this would exist. So I guess it all boils down to the fact that we all can be a**holes sometimes, and I guess I got called on mine.. I do after all spend almost as much time mapping for this as I do working my day job. See ya on The Battle Fields and lets all remember how hard game progamming really is, and that the $75 I spent on the game has definatly paid for itself in the hours I spend at it! :2guns:

General Member
Since: Jun 14, 2002
Posts: 226
Last: Jan 26, 2005
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Wednesday, Jul. 17, 2002 10:33 pm
Great comments from everyone, really. I still stand behind every comment I made, 100 percent, especially after reading more comments, and realizing: single player was the MAIN FOCUS of the game. Without the multiplayer component, I would guess that this game's sales would have been closer to the 'bad' side of things than good. I still stand by my comments on the SDK. I'm not expecting things to be 'two clicks and your making maps' -- but even that first SDK that was released...umm..an incomplete entities file? Despite the fact that it was relatively simple for me to edit the file and get things to work -- it's little touches like that which I just find to be subpar. Like one of the programmers there, couldn't have cut and pasted a bit of text into a file, rather than having to have tutorials posted on the net about it? Now...after reading the recent interview with Raven, and hearing their general comments on their future 'support' with the game...I'm not very hopeful. It doesn't sound like they are really gung-ho about adding new guns, or much in the way of gametypes? Hey, I could be wrong, and I hope that I am. All in all, I guess I really was expecting more from the single player, and while the multiplayer is good, it honestly doesn't feel TOO much different from SOF1 multiplayer (which I actually enjoyed...) except that it's been refined. And that's not a bad thing, really -- however, I was hoping for more guns and maps... In regards to the 64 player RMG styled maps...I've yet to play on a server with 32 people, that ran as smooth as I like to play multiplayer games on. Maybe on a lan or something, that'd change...but it just seems to me, that even Tribes, a game developed in engine and netcode, for supporting huge amounts of players, often didn't have numbers that high were performance was top-notch? I guess it comes down to: if I wanted to play huge, sprawling maps with that many people, I would have continued to play Operation Flashpoint...because I believe it handled that type of maps/gameplay much better (although it had kind of hack netcode...?) Again, I stand by everything I've said...and just hope that the community is able to keep things alive, everforward, and popular for others to play. All the main contributors/administrators to this site, and planetsoldier: thank you very much for your effort and time. It IS appreciated. :devilishgrin: