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Forum:	All Forums : Soldier of Fortune
Category:	SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Mapping, modeling, scripting, skinning and all forms of editing for the game Soldier of Fortune II
Moderators:	foyleman, narc, ReverendTed, rEdrUmMDK, Foxhound, PleaseMYOB, batistablr, Welshy

Author

Topic: r_showtris and r_speeds

narc

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Since: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 1204
Last: Dec 31, 2006
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Saturday, Aug. 10, 2002 10:25 pm
you can make it, just plan it out first with r_speed in mind. the arena area should have no other area drawn when in it. also it shouldnt be overly large or have much geometrric detail since the stairs going all the way around it will eat up most of your tris. -- culling fog would likely be a must in this situation but we dont want to totally rely on it. you can plan for doors and windows of the small rooms to face each other if you want -- like your underground cells, since they dont add an ungodly amount of tris. just make sure to arrange the hallways so that those rooms wont be rendered when standing far off in another area of the map, an L shape hallway is a good way to do it. after you have made around 3 or 4 rooms you should test compile on bspfullvis. get a pen and paper when testing your map. make a log of the highest r_speed for each vis node. also make a note of where the boundry of each vis node is. now you can make changes to the map and see from your log how r_speed was affected. this is my method and it works. actually if you carefully lay out the portals and hallways there isnt much optimising needed at all ;)

rEdrUmMDK

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Since: May 29, 2002
Posts: 6784
Last: Dec 13, 2007
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Saturday, Aug. 10, 2002 10:32 pm
You can bet I will be monitoring showtris and r speeds this time. I was working with one editor a while back and you could place an invisible brush in doorways separating rooms and the game would not try to draw it all at once. In the editor it would show the rooms in different colors that were separated. That was really cool. Also the portal thing was there too but I did not pay too much attention to it and forgot all about it. Great subject. Thanks
Backup Your Work or your Work will be gone. http://www.modsonline.com better red than dead

narc

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Since: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 1204
Last: Dec 31, 2006
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Saturday, Aug. 10, 2002 10:43 pm
we have that stuff too, hint brush can be used to put in the doorways and windows -- also i think gtk has a portal viewer plugin but ive never used it either.

Shallow[BAP]

General Member
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Posts: 3
Last: Aug 12, 2002
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 09:15 am
'ello. I'm a long-time Q3 mapper, spent more hours tinkering than I care to think about. I think you guys have read some Q2 hinting tutorials: Be aware that hints in Q3 do not work in quite the same way, and I presume its the same in SoF2. As I understand it, in Q2 hints actually create extra triangles by splitting brush faces to generate additional leaf nodes and portals: In Q3 a hint brush creates a new leaf node (and bsp splits) without splitting brush faces any further. This means that if properly employed, hints should not increase r_speeds. Now, it's possible that Raven actually changed the way q3map works when they made it into sof2map, however I think it's unlikely since the way Q3 style hints work is cleaner. Assuming that the above is true, placing hints in doorways and windows is really unnecessary - chances are that bsp has actually done a good job of making a leaf and its attendant portals in that opening. Adding unnecessary hints has a good chance of slowing down your vis compile time, and unnecessarily bloating the PVS data with some tiny leafs that aren't really doing much. For example, if you have a doorway through a 24 unit thick wall, and you put an 8 unit thick hint in the middle, all you're really going to get is two extra leafs with virtually identical (perhaps very slightly smaller) visibility sets - almost triple the data for no real gain. If you place a fat hint, you're doing nothing at all because you'll just be replicating the leaf you'd get anyway. Now, besides the area actually in the doorway, you might see benefits in other areas close by but they would probably be negligible (r_speeds savings might be 100 or less). Oh, and about the verts count in the r_speeds readout - it's possible to exceed the maximum number of verts that Q3 can handle and crash the engine! I assume this might be possible in SoF2 as well, although much less likely. In Q3 the skydome-type skies could do this: if you made a scrolling sky shader with four or five stages, looking up could mean the end of the world! Probably not something you should worry about but interesting to know! Here are some links to some good stuff about hinting, they're for Q3 but the information is certainly applicable. I warn you, they are quite technical but if you understand them then you should have a good grasp of how to sort out your PVS: SPoG on hints djbob on hints And finally the mother of them all: SPoG's technical explanation of the q3map process and efficient construction. The definitive work! If you see anything written about vis and hints by Q (aka Quakin'), Maj, SPoG (Small Pile of Gibs) or djbob, you can safely assume it's good info, those guys really know their stuff. Finally, remember that r_speeds are just a guide and are not the ultimate measure of how efficient your map is. r_speeds tell you how much is being drawn to produce a frame, but it doesn't tell you how long that frame is taking to draw! It's possible to have maps with very low (good) r_speeds but very poor framerates, and vice versa. Make sure you check your framerates as well as your r_speeds, and try to test on several different spec PCs at different detail levels. I'm tired after all this typing and thinking about hints, I'm off for a lie down :)

rEdrUmMDK

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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 01:32 pm
Ain't life grand. From all this info on Tris and R speeds everyone go to the nearest college and get your damn engineering degree. Thats what it sounds like. Or you can map away (And do the Best You Can) and try to keep it playable. :devilishgrin:
Backup Your Work or your Work will be gone. http://www.modsonline.com better red than dead

rEdrUmMDK

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Since: May 29, 2002
Posts: 6784
Last: Dec 13, 2007
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 05:28 pm
I built a small wall and put an arched doorway in it. I saved it as a prefab. Built a room, loaded three of these prefabs in it. All three in a line. Turned on showtris. You could see every line in the room. Nothing was blocked. I built a hint brush and stretched it from wall to wall, floor to ceiling, just in front of one of the wall portals. In other words looking through 1 wall portal everything should have been blocked from view. I split the room, one third of it with the hint brush. It looked the same. Same amount of Tris lines.
Backup Your Work or your Work will be gone. http://www.modsonline.com better red than dead

Shallow[BAP]

General Member
Since: Aug 11, 2002
Posts: 3
Last: Aug 12, 2002
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 06:46 pm
If I understand what you're saying correctly, what you did shouldn't have been expected to make any difference. If you think it should have, you could post a shot of the XY top view in radiant and everyone can have a looksee... I might be reading your description wrong as well. Remember that the PVS is stored by leaf node not by portal, but its whether the portals that bound a pair of leafs can see each other determines whether those leafs can see each other. If any of the portals on leaf A can see any of the portals on leaf B, then everything in leaf B will be visible to the engine from leaf A, even if there are some parts of A that can't draw line of sight to B at all. Which is why rows of doors, columns, library shelves etc. are kind of worst case scenarios for vis - they're almost always going to do that kind of thing.

Foxhound

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Since: May 31, 2002
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 07:24 pm
This almost makes me want to spit my tobacco out. Almost. I agree red lol sounds more like that physics crap they tried to pour down my throat in school. lol Thanks for the info Shallow. I'll get in in there one way or another. Cheers
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rEdrUmMDK

Preferred PLUS Member
Since: May 29, 2002
Posts: 6784
Last: Dec 13, 2007
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 07:52 pm
The only time I spit mine out is when I go to bed or I OD on nicotine and it makes me sick. lol
Backup Your Work or your Work will be gone. http://www.modsonline.com better red than dead

narc

General Member
Since: Nov 30, 2001
Posts: 1204
Last: Dec 31, 2006
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Category: SoFII Editing, Gaming, and Design Posted: Sunday, Aug. 11, 2002 08:43 pm
thanks for this new info shallow, i was using what i knew to be true from q2 and expected it was the same -- fox & red its not that hard! its really a simple concept